Arvee:
Just had a quick idea, but I thought of this as a tactical plan against big baddies:
1. Darred Chokes baddie
2. Glendon Webs baddie
3. Ahb Flame Strikes baddie

This way, Jen causes the baddie to get a negative on her saving throw.  Glendon then Webs them. Then, and even waiting for a round or two to keep baddie webbed, Ahb Flame Strikes for lots of damage plus the extra 2d4 for the web burning.






Taizu:
Idea works well in concept but we rarely have the leisure anymore to focus on one baddie to the exclusion of everyone else. Last combat -  three of us were dealing with four wolves (until Arvee fled, leaving Tarva  and I to cope with the last two wolves :) ) and the rest dealing with other  wolves. The problem with using fire against a web is if you don't kill the  baddie with the fire, it's now free. Much like turning or hypnotizing, it  is better to leave the webbed baddie alone until someone can do significant  damage to it or the web is about to expire.

Thorns might have worked well with the wolves too. I think we need  a simple rule - If the baddie is immobile - Webbed, Thorned, Greased, ect  -leave it that way as long as possible and concentrate on the ones busy  killing us.





Darred:
We may want to add to this plan, Glendon Greasing the ground before Webbing the target.  Then hold off setting the web and target on fire for a few rounds of ranged strikes like Magic Missile, arrows, Ice Knife, Holy Smite etc.  Then a round of Flame Strike, Flaming Sphere, Melf's Acid Arrow and or flaming arrows or alchemist fire arrows. And when the Grease and Flame Strike are gone, Arvee can deliver the final blow.




Ahb:
1)  Arvee very good to come up with battle plans!!!!!!  I have been considering the possibility of formally nominating him battlelord of the group and asking him to come up with lots of these possible combinations to help us strategically.
 
2) I was ready to cast Thorns at the wolves, but they closed with me before I had a chance.
 
3) I can only cast Flame Strike once a day as it is a fifth level spell.  Nancy you weren't there when I did it last time.  It does 9 d6 point of damage, half of which cannot be saved against.  It is a very powerful spell.




Tarva:
This is more of an open-ended disucssion topic for the entire group: what are the treasure split arrangements with between the group and Lysette and Neva?




Arvee:
Isn't all of us 7? Or are you counting the Acolytes? For the whole treasure split, I thought we agreed during the session that they are no part of treasure splits. I understand that they are going to be part of experience splits, but why do we use group resources to outfit them with healing potions? No offense, but if every battle is going to start with 'Girls get in the hut' then why bother? I don't think it's going to help out Ahb's leadership to use the resources of an active 7 person 8-9 level party to nursemaid them.

One more thing. Shouldn't we reserve all of the Cure Lights for those times when healing gets us to 6 and under hit points down and thus not have to have a healer blow a spell.





Tarva:
For healing, Tarva would count the acolytes - that's almost a given, as her deity back on Albion is Dioncecht, whose domain is healing.  Of course she'll go along with the group majority if they think differently.

Did we (agree acolytes have no share in treasure splits)?  Between bookkeeping and allergies, I could easily have missed that.  Because I don't remember any discussion about their status in the group at all [beyond finding out, after the ambush fight, that they do share ep].

As it happens, Frank agrees with you.  Tarva is a little torn.  On the one hand, this is her leader bringing in these acolytes, and all of them are religious servants of Pelor, who is the closest deity to Dioncecht in this world, so she wants to be supportive.   On the other hand, she doesn't recall (although that may be Frank's fault) any opportunity for the group to have stated whether or not they wanted these acolytes along - and certainly doesn't recall any determination of what benefits they are entitled to.

Back to these most recent dozen Cure Lights, I didn't make it clear (sorry) but what Tarva was thinking, about the 'extra' three anyway, was not that they would become Ahb's, Lysette's, and Neva's personally owned potions, but rather that they were the three people most likely to have an opportunity to deliver a potion to an unconscious character in the middle of melee (as Glendon did for Tarva); and that it would therefore be beneficial to the group for them to actually have a healing potion to so deliver.  [And if the group consensus is that the dozen should be distributed as seven owned by individual PCs, and the remainder five remaining in the group pot, then Tarva will still suggest that Lysette and Neva carry two each of those group pot potions, for just that purpose.]

I presume this is switching from the discussion of distribution into a discussion on the strategy of use?  Then I have to say that if Tarva is really down, has a round in which to actually drink a potion, and is out of Cure Moderate and Cure Serious, then she's certainly going to drink a Cure Light now.




Taizu:,
My entire recall on the Acolytes was that suddenly they appeared with Ahb and  then immediately left with us. There was no discussion about them becoming permanent members of the group or sharing in ex. or treasure. Had Taizu been asked, he would have said it was a very bad idea to have people with so little experience with us given that most baddies we run into now (especially since we are looking for dragons and giants - yes we are insane) will kill them if they score a hit. On the other hand, if Ahb needs Acolytes to grow in her worship of Pelor, that's fine. But suddenly adding them to the group is contrary to the mostly democratic way we've been doing things. There was no discussion about provisioning (other than Ahb would do it), or shares issues. We had previously agreed that members of the party who did not take active part in the combat would share in ep. I don't believe that we've agreed that the girls are part of the party.




Darred:
Darred doesn't have any problem with the acolytes being a part of the group, getting experience, treasure, or whatever Ahb says they get.  If they serve a purpose, they should get something - how much and what they get is not something he feels he has a say about.  He thinks they are not ready to be in combat, but can be helpful around camp  He will endeavor to protect them and will help train them in whatever skills Ahb feels are appropriate.

Jennifer, thinks....  The acolytes are an important step in Ahb's progression.  Maybe the group should have talked about it before they were added, but we are passed that now.  They are a bit of a burden, but they can also be helpful.  If we keep them out of combat as much as possible by leaving them at camp, I think we will be ok.  They can take care of the horses while we are out killing things.  They can also use their healing spells on us when we return to camp bruised and bloody.  Eventually they will become more useful.  I hate to have to waste XP on them and wonder what sort of formulas and rules exist for NPC's gaining experience.  As they are clerics, they won't have a burning need for treasure, but they will probably have to receive some.




Arvee:
Of course, Darred is also a disciple of Pelor.

I think Taizu's main point is the important one, that was we as a group have always decided on factors that affect our experience and treasure, and here is something that was not. And honestly, if enough of us really care, I would argue that we are not necessarily past that, and if enough of us care that it should be discussed (After all, Ahb does own an interest in a tower where they can be taught alchemy and herbalism). I think a point that has been unspoken and may need to be brought up is also what size group do we feel comfortable with. At this point, we are actually looking at how many horses including the pack horses? We're getting big in size.

I do not think they should get treasure, but if it does get decided that they do, then I think it should come out of the share we give to the temple of pelor.

We can see how they do when they actually cast healing spells, but right  now, they look like awfully expensive stable hands.



Ahb:
Ahb took as her most recent feat "Leadership".  This allows her to call a cohort or followers.  It seemed a reasonable thing to do since she has been honing her leadership skills for a while now.  Lysette and Neva are first level characters.  They are very weak currently and Ahb has no intention of taking them into combat situations if she can avoid it.  It seemed like a good idea for us to have some people to watch over our camp and horses and such while we are away.  This will prevent the GM from having to decide whether to kill them all off and take everything every time we leave them alone.  Ahb intends to train them in the ways of the battle cleric so that they can take care of themselves to some greater extent along the way.  She would appreciate the help of eveyone else who is interested in this venture. 
 
Ahb feels that it is no bad thing to have the two of them at camp with extra Cure Light Wounds spells to help us upon our return.  There is probably no need to give them extra potions since she is hopeful they will not be in combat.  The kind of combats we have would just squish them right away.  That is very bad for Ahb's Leadership modifier.
 
Ahb will share treasure with them from her portion of treasure splits.  No one else need suffer because of this. 
 
It seems to me that they should recieve experience for combats that they are involved in, but if we go into a dungeon or such and leave them on horse watch they shouldn't be a part of that experience split.
 
I hope that you all can live with this.  My intention was not to create problems, but to solve one that has been tempting the GM to do evil for a long time.




Rowan:
I've been giving some thought as to why Arvee's boots did not activate in the last battle. The only difference I could see between this battle and the previous one (where the boots did activate) was that we were fighting allies of the Frost Giants that we took the boots off of. I can't come up with a good reason they would feel the need to make them inactive against their allies (the Giants don't seem that giving), but I thought it's a starting point. Anyone have any ideas?




Ahb:
I thought maybe they had to recharge and it hadn't been long enough since the last use for them to do so.




Rowan:
As I remember it, they can be used a certain number of times per day and that they recharge at midnight. At first John said that they weren't recharged, and then Jesse pointed out that it was after midnight, and John said (something to the effect of) "O.K. they are recharged, but they still don't activate." So it was my understanding that it was either luck or something circumstantial that caused them not to activiate.





Darred:
How's this for some tactics to deal with large groups (more then ten) of opponents?
When we are facing a large group of low or medium level opponents or three or more heavy hitters we need to delay or imobolize some of them.



Arvee:
The problem with most barracks is they usually have at least two exits such as windows for sleeping or the fact that you want your army to get out into the open as quickly as possible. 
 
Also, I think spells that have saving throws for half or even limited effect are going to be more effective as we go on than spells that have save for negate, as the number of low and medium opponents are going to give way to the heavy hitters who have really really huge bonuses to saving throws.
 
Next, to add to Taizu's comment on the limited range, we also have problems with area of effect.  Grease should grow, but the Web wand is not only limited in area of effect, and isn't the number of charges fairly low?
 
The problem with large groups is how they effect us in combat.  During the battle with the Giantess, the weird thing, the bear, and the ogres, the weird thing went well to our right.  When we did not expand well to cover the entire line, we ended up with a wedge in our lines seperating our front line, while having our support/ranged characters in melee.





Arvee:
The problem with most barracks is they usually have at least two exits such as windows for sleeping or the fact that you want your army to get out into the open as quickly as possible. 
 
Also, I think spells that have saving throws for half or even limited effect are going to be more effective as we go on than spells that have save for negate, as the number of low and medium opponents are going to give way to the heavy hitters who have really really huge bonuses to saving throws.
 
Next, to add to Nancy's comment on the limited range, we also have problems with area of effect.  Grease should grow, but the web wand is not only limited in area of effect, and isn't the number of charges fairly low?
 
The problem with large groups is how they effect us in combat.  During the battle with the Giantess, the weird thing, the bear, and the ogres, the weird thing when well to our right.  When we did not expand well to cover the entire line, we ended up with a wedge in our lines seperating our front line, while having our support/ranged characters in melee.



Tarva:
We took a lot of booty off those ambushers (well, except from the one Arvee played meat-grinder on, from him we got almost nothing) (which, Tarva, anyway, considers the prefereable outcome: she'd much rather have dead enemies and 'dead' loot, than both still alive).
  
Not that it's particularly exciting booty.  Here's the breakdown:

COUNT ITEM    WEIGHT TOTAL BASE    VALUE
 11         shields        5               55            3          16.50
 11         armor       35             385        400     1,100.00
 12         swords     10              120        335    2,010.00
 11     longbows       3                33           75       412.50
216        arrows       3                33             1           5.00
                                                              ===      ========
      TOTAL                                            626      3,544.00

shields:  small wooden
aromr:    masterwork black banded with icon
swords:   masterwork bastard swords
longbows: normal
arrows:   normal longbow arrows

The first year Tarva spent on this world she was living, um, not in poverty or hand-to-mouth, but certainly not well, either.  She was earning about 25gp a month above bartered-for room and board.  So a number like nearly 3.6Kgp still causes her to react excitedly at first.
 
But she's looking at the weights also (because Ahb and Taizu seem to have conspired to make that her job), and the first thing she sees is that this is more than two-thirds of two packhorses carrying capacity -- and we're using those packhorses fairly extensively to carry horse rations (since they can't find much to graze on in the mountains in winter).
 
And the second thing she sees is that this much weight means the booty is worth less than 6gp per pound.  These days we worry about carrying around GOLD because it weights too much -- and it's worth 50gp per pound.  So Tarva is thinking that this stuff truly isn't very valuable -- even if a lot of it is masterwork -- and we ought not waste our time (and horses) hauling it around.
 
The armor is the worst, because that stupid icon cuts their resale value down to only 25% (instead of the usual 50%).  And outside of money, Tarva doesn't want to be running around the countryside carrying those icons: a) followers of the cult would immediately recognize us as enemies (not, Tarva admits, that we'd be likely to notice any difference in attitude or behavior on their part); b) any legitimate forces out here might shoot first before discovering we are on their side; c) it seems like an easy target for someone casting magic to use to locate us.
 
The swords are the best, being worth about 17gp per pound.     But even that is still way low in terms of value.  And the longbows are like 12.5 a pound, but they have the additional, non-monetary value of being useful to several group members.
 
Tarva's recommendation to Ahb is that we ditched the whole lot back where we were ambushed -- after replentishing any longbow arrows any individual wants (and for that matter, anyone who wants a backup longbow should be free to take one).  Her second choice would be to take only the bastard swords, longbows, and arrows; abandoning the shields and armor.

      




Ahb:
Ahb thinks we should ditch it all - possibly bury it so it is not completely obvious what happened to the missing force - anyone who wants anything my feel free to pick it up.  Ahb does not want any of it.





Tarva:
Tarva was thinking about doing something to reduce their usefulness to zero; but since this is a retroactive abandonment, we'll need John's permission (per his recent rule) to have done anything beyond just walking away.
   
(Also, burying sounds like a lot of work and time -- Tarva was hoping to find a ditch or pit to dump them in...)
   
After thinking it over, Tarva is going to take one longbow (I don't think any of us longbow users has a spare) (and even if Rowan or Taizu does, Tarva doesn't) and one full quiver of arrows, which she'll put on one of the packhorses.  Also, she'll bring all her quivers back to full again.

Speaking of bows and arrows: Taizu and Rowan, as long as Tarva is using "Heart's Reach"'s bow, she thinks you should be carrying the four +1 arrows Tarva has.  That way, if we come across something that your masterwork bows can't affect, you'll at least have two shots each which can affect it.  Notice that the fletching is different, so you can tell by feel which are these arrows.
   
Oh, and would each of you like half of her 20 silvered arrows?  (Again with a different fletching.)

Hey, does anyone else think there's something strange about an entire dozen low-lifes running around with high-quality exotic weapons?  Weapons that require an extra feat (Exotic Weapon Proficiency) just to not be at -4 with?  Weapons that are not only heavy but also require both hands to wield?
   
Tarva doubts that we've stumbled across a jury (well, what else would you call twelve angry men?;-) who just all happen to have taken Exotic Weapon Proficiency :: Bastard Sword as their extra human starting-out feat.  And she doesn't believe that the cult's higher ups would be so stupid as to give their minions weapons -- especially high-priced high-quality weapons -- that they can't use. [Although perhaps they haven't read the World Dominator Rules web page;-]  So she's wondering if it's possible to magic Proficiency onto someone, or better yet a group. After all, they seemed to have been magicked into committing suicide if captured (or perhaps only if interrogated?).




Rowan:
Having been so successful in skinning the dragon (for a lousy 35gp), Rowan has to ask: is there any value to the winter wolves' hides or any other part of their anatomy (get your minds out of the gutter)? Or would it just be extra weight that we can't afford to carry?





Arvee:
I sort of put the whole well-equipped thing up to a group that was probably fairly powerful when they still had a god. Now that they are much smaller, they may still a lot of the old stuff lying around (remember that while the armor is masterwork it uses iron) or maybe just a really good group of armorsmiths. As for the extra human feat as exotic weapon, if they were trained as a army unit, then it sort of makes sense. Also, for a group of highwaymen who were obviously not intended to go against a high level group, then with really good looking equipment can scare the average peon strolling along.

Although to be perfectly honest, I'm betting that whoever translated the module from 2 to 3 probably forgot that they made the bastard sword exotic (although only if you wield it one-handed, as two-handed its not considered an exotic weapon, but then they still had shields.).




Darred:
Darred would mention that since it doesn't look like we will be back to a town anytime soon, unless you have something with which to treat the hides, they will just rot and attact predators - however the cold temps of winter will slow that somewhat.  If you can treat the hides they would be worth something, since it is winter and the pelts are at their best.  The skinning and treatment of the hides will take a good bit of time.